ASI 46 Golden Artist Color, Inc. Interview with Mark Golden, CEO & Co-Founder

Welcome

Jeff00:07

back to art supply insiders. My name is Jeff Morrow, and today we are so fortunate to be talking with Mark Golden. Mark is the founder and CEO of golden artist colors of which you've all know about. Mark, how are you?

Mark00:22

I'm doing great. Thank you, Jeff. Well,

Jeff00:24

thank you for taking the time to talk with me and our audience can, can tell us a little bit about golden.

Who are they? What do they do just for the people that actually haven't heard of you.

Mark00:38

Well, thank you. This is a great opportunity to share. So thanks, Jeff. The, the company started really with the inspiration of my, my folks, Sam and Adele golden Sam was partners with Lenny Bo core. So you'd have to have some really old timers on the line to know of Boco mm-hmm , but Leonard was so well known in the industry and so well known amongst artists, and he began his company in 33 in Manhattan, in a small little.

My dad joined him in 36 and they made hand ground oil colors on a slab with a mul. And it was fortuitous. They did that, um, for quite a few years, but it was right in the middle of the New York art scene when things were starting to really. Blossom, uh, nobody had any money, but the artists that were around them were like Pollock and DeCooning and Rothko, Motherwell, you name 'em.

They all had their lofts down on, uh, by 15th street by the Boco plant, which became a meeting place for artists cuz they had the only stove. So a lot of these lofts, all of these artists that were in these non-heated lofts would come by the Boco shop, hear the news news of the day. Why do I share that is because that history, that history of being.

and making paints, but also inviting artists into the process really was the Genesis of the company. So when my dad retired in 72, sold his company, his part of the company, back to his uncle, uh, and moved upstate to this beautiful, uh, farm they had that they purchased in 1968. Uh, my dad was bored. So for eight years, uh, was just, uh, underfoot.

And my mom. Really, uh, gave him a kick in the butt and said, go call mark up and see if he wants to make paint with you out of a barn. And this I'd like to say that the story had more plans than we had all strategic plan built up, but that was about it. Um, We started making paint and every week I'd go down to Manhattan and visit with artists and, and drop off paint or say, if you like it, gimme some names of other people.

If you don't, uh, if you don't, I'll be back next week. And that started fortuitous, uh, process of custom making paint for individual artists, which gave us access to so many incredible artists and that's continued to grow. It continued to grow and continued to develop. So the lab now. You know, 22 people, five formulators, chemists, um, and we make probably close.

Two 50 to 300 custom products for individual artists. They're unique, mostly color mixing. Um, but every once in a while, it's a product that makes you tilt your head and go, Hmm. That's, that's pretty strange, but

Jeff03:24

, let's do it. Well, I gotta tell you most people that I run across. Golden is just synonymous with the art industry.

It, it's not only got a fabulous reputation, but my goodness gracious the, the, the colors and your artists. So love what you guys do. Uh, it, it, it feels like there's love in the

Mark03:47

paint it was, it was, and, and actually Sam's inspiration was making paint for his friends. That was his vision was I just wanna make paint.

For the people he grew up with and that he admired. And, uh, and that became my passion. I, I didn't wanna make, I didn't wanna go into business. I, I wanted to do something creative in my life. I wanted to go into the sciences and, uh, uh, and I didn't realize that my dad really wasn't a businessman. He just loved making paint for artists.

And, uh, that, and it's a real responsibility when you, when the lab grew, mainly because of the level of artists that we were working with were some of the most important artists in the world. And it was, you know, we really need a more profess. A group of folks backing us up to assure the, the, the friends that we're making pain for, that we're doing the right things that we're assuring, that the materials are gonna last, they're gonna work and perform well.

We're sure,

Jeff04:46

glad that you guys are, are doing this. Let, let me, let's kind of go back to let let's talk about beginners, um, beginners. Um, they don't. they don't know very much. So what's the difference between using house paint for your canvas, as opposed to using golden

Mark05:03

paints for a canvas? you know, the question about using house paint is, is one of the most common questions our group gets asked.

You don't need our permission to use anything you want. And artists will. I mean, we know artists that are going to, you know, the home Depot, lows and picking up whatever there is or into the Michaels and picking up, they don't just go to the art supply area. They're buying the glitter and all the other stuff and incorporating it.

They're going to the dumps and landfills and, and putting all sorts of things. So no artist needs our permission to do whatever they. But once you have that contract between yourself, an artist and someone who's purchasing your work, I think you, I think you do have an obligation. I think you have an obligation to assure that there's at least some thought you put into it to assure that this thing is going to last, unless that's your, that is your ethos.

And yeah, I make my art and it's intended to, uh, degrade and that's what you're buying and, you know, Ahead of time, but as a consumer, as someone who loves the art and buys the thing, because they, they love that, that piece. I'm assuming that they have some intention of being stewards of that and care taking, but they want it to last.

So, uh, a beginner, I. I understand that they're gonna use all sorts of different, uh, different materials and, and at the staff level, at the store level, you're gonna guide that person to the right materials and it may be appropriate that they're using less expensive, expensive paints. Um, uh, but. If, if you're going to curate for that artist or that new beginner materials, you wanna steer 'em toward materials that are gonna be that they're gonna be successful with, like it to maybe woodworking.

Mm. Um, you can get cheap materials, you can get cheap tools and in the end, it may not. Um, you may not continue with the practice because you're gonna be frustrated with the results that you achieve. And that's why you typically are gonna go to materials that are gonna be a little bit more professional for, for your use.

And I think in the same way, I think artists even beginners want to be curated a palette. That's allowing them to be more successful and maybe the, the art retail is going to let me get you a few colors that are gonna work really well. Six mixing colors and mediums that will allow you to extend your paint so you can move it further.

Uh, or materials to slow down the drawing, if that's a difficulty for you, but, or go to, you know, take a look at your series of your colors in professional artist colors. Every brand has typically a series from one to nine or one to five or whatever. And a, uh, staff might curate a group of products that are in the lower series to assist someone in buying less.

They can still use professional materials, but have it at a lesser cost. Gosh,

there

Jeff08:00

are so many choices that, you know, you think about the, the newbie going out there and they're looking on the shelves and, and that's why you need to go to professionals like the brick and mortars and, and people that do this every day.

But what, what would be the difference between a student grade and an artist

Mark08:19

grade paint? You know, I, there are so many euphemisms for the word, a student studio, craft paint, um, they're, they're all, um, they to make a paint less expensive, you need to use less expensive ingredients, or you need to dilute the paints with a lot of materials that are gonna be much cheaper of water.

In acrylic, um, in oil paint, you're gonna be using fillers and extenders that will allow you to bulk up the paint and you're not gonna use expensive pigments, and you're gonna use thickeners to help give that body and feel of the oil paint. Um, but, uh, those are the choices that you're gonna make. So maybe difficulties in, in mixing, uh, colors, but again, the.

Idea is if you're just beginning, I know you don't wanna make a mistake and you don't wanna buy materials that are very expensive. So I know that's that urge to buy, you know, I can buy big buckets of paint for very little money, but, um, at, in the end that, that may, that may be fine. You're gonna be well suited with that.

But for many artists and for many beginners, it could be a real frustration in using materials that are, are less, less expensive. Yeah, and they just

Jeff09:30

won't quite do what you want them to do. Right. And they just kind of, it is what it is.

Mark09:36

Mm-hmm . Yep. But for every artist, you know, you don't need our permission to use whatever you, you wanna use.

Chewing gum and you're painting bat guano. I've heard it all. Um, really.

Jeff09:47

Back on chewing gum.

Mark09:49

Really? Yeah. And people saying, you know, I want to add this, flottman jet some to my painting and how do I make it permanent? And it's like, well, yeah, you can't

Jeff10:01

so why should, why should somebody spend more on materials?

What's what's the reasoning behind

Mark10:06

that? Um, I think there's a lot of choices we have to make or other professional art material companies make. Um, when they. Uh, when they're making professional artist quality product, it's one, the level of pigment that you're gonna be using the color choices, the light fastness of those materials that they're going to last the, the purity of the binder, the clarity of the binder, whatever that might be, those professional colors, you know, and there are many wonderful professional brands of paint out there.

That are gonna spend the time to assure that the materials are going to be light fast, that they're gonna work, um, that they're gonna be there and they're gonna be successful. And also guarantee that if you're not successful, that we, you know, will assist.

Jeff10:56

. So when you say light fast, uh, I know the, the, the, the real good artists of the world know what that means, but it let's say we've got some beginners out there.

Why should they be considered with a word, like

Mark11:07

light fast mm-hmm well, it's, it is a, sometimes a, an unclear word or a archival. What is, what does that mean? Mm. Uh, when, when we. A new pigment and this is every new pigment or even a new pigment supplier. We will evaluate those pigments for their ability to, uh, maintain their color, their color clarity, and especially intense.

So we'll add white to each color because you're able to see failure in a, in a pigment a little bit faster. When you, uh, add white to the, to the paint, you can see the reduction in the pigment and the. The colors become much lighter. So we'll use, uh, accelerating equipment to Xenon arc equipment and UV equipment to accelerate the light exposure that a painting might go under.

But we also send the paints to Florida and to Arizona to independent labs so that we can get an evaluation of how, how does. Affect the permanency of these colors that will you end up with a color like a Liz in Crimson that under exposure becomes a faded to white or, you know, the popularity and, uh, of the fluorescent colors, uh, fluorescent colors tend to be one of the hottest things.

On the, on the market right now, artists love to use 'em, but we, we rate the life. Fastness is poor, uh, indoors, you know, you're gonna have some variability and exposure outdoors that really, they, the light, the UV, uh, radiation, the, the kind of thing that would, uh, cause, um, uh, uh, skin to change color or cancer.

Um, is the kind of thing that also affects pigment and degrades the pigments and reduces the color. so,

Jeff13:02

is, is that how I'm gonna be able to tell if these materials are gonna last over time?

Mark13:09

that, that's a great question. Jeff, you buying artist colors are, are probably one of the most blind things you can buy they're in these opaque tubes or jars, and you're buying this thing with the confidence and with some kind of expectation that the materials are going to last mm-hmm and that's.

That is about the integrity of the company that's making the material. So you wanna buy from brands that have been around for a while, that that consistently are able to do the testing. We've actually found in our own studies that, uh, although there's an a S TM rating, American society of testing materials, and they had done testing in the seventies of a broad range of pigments and evaluated them for light fastness.

Being something that they may suggest would last, at least a hun over well, over a hundred years in museum gallery conditions all the way down to poor. And, uh, we found some anomalies even in that rating that hasn't been redone for 20 or 30, 40 years, that light Fest rating. So we continue to evaluate those things, even when we're, uh, we had an example and.

uh, about how industry has changed over time. Ahan the yellows. We had evaluated as either light fast, one or two, uh, over many, many years, you know, 20 years of, of investigation. And it was when we introduced the new core watercolor. We reevaluated. Our hands of colors and we found, oh, they weren't performing said, oh, that must be because of watercolor.

Maybe doesn't have the same kind of protection as acrylic or oil. So we then retested, uh, All of our old batches, which we retain, we retain all of our old batches. And we were able to do studies, uh, over a 10 year period. And we found that the light fastness of the pigment from the same supplier continued to decline over those years.

So a color that we would've recommended as being light fastness or good in light fastness became. In light fastness, and that wouldn't have been discovered unless we had an occasion to take a, another look at these, at these things that over time, even a, a pigment that might have been rated as, uh, as good or excellent over time, the manufacturer changes.

And they're not sharing that information as they change that. And so you need to constantly be reevaluating.

Jeff15:40

So with. Did with all of that said, do, do, does golden product offer any guarantees?

Mark15:49

In life fastness Y yes. Um, what we do is, you know, one is our, a lot of our evaluation is, is done over a long period of time when someone's not pleased with a product, for whatever reason we will re replace that product.

Um, it's. Professional. You spent a lot of money on it. If it's not, if it's not staying well in the jar or it hardens up or whatever that reason might be, um, that someone's not pleased will replace the product and that, uh, doesn't have to go through a lot of hoops and, uh, red tape. Each of our material specialists.

If they have a customer that's not pleased with a product, we'll simply replace it. Uh, actually we had one customer call and said all of our, our colors, they had hardened in the tube and we immediately replaced them and they called back later and they apologized. He said it wasn't our paint. Um, and it didn't matter.

It was, it was fine. Um but it just doesn't happen that often. And, and artists are really responsible and respectful of that as well. So I I've never felt like we were taken advantage by anyone who was displeased with a, with a product. This is

Jeff17:00

a, this is that kind of industry. Um, I just haven't found a lot of people that try to take advantage of anyone.

This is more of an industry of people helping other people. Really. If you think about it,

Mark17:15

That's really been the case to I, uh, I didn't realize that was the case when we first entered into it and we were told working with artists, they're gonna be, you know, you're not gonna be able to trust them. And it's like, oh, anything but the, uh, the case they've, they've been so wonderful in helping us develop the product, helping us improve the product, the willingness to give us those gifts when stuff doesn't work, it's a gift, someone willing to.

I mean, they could just say, you know, forget golden. I'm not gonna use the brand anymore. I'm gonna throw this stuff in the garbage, but the willingness to call up and say, Hey, I've had a problem with this thing. Can you help? We try to duplicate that problem, uh, in the lab seeing, oh, I had this kind of, of paint in it here, this paint bubbled, or this paint did some other kind of, kind of thing.

We try to reproduce those in the lab so that we can. And so when you get that kind of gift from an artist, as opposed to just suggesting, well, they're just using it wrong, um, which is certainly possible. Uh, we say let's, let's check this out and make sure that, uh, we have a better understanding of, of why they're seeing, seeing these results.

Well, your

Jeff18:23

relationship with, uh, professional artists, beginning artists, um, go back a long ways and, and that's one of the things that golden. Most well known for is how they're there for the artist all along the way. Uh, what online resources are available for, let's say training staff at a retail store, or even our end users, the artists

Mark18:48

, um, I, we have over, uh, a thousand pages of technical information on our website and it's and hundreds of videos.

And honestly, Jeff is overwhelming. , it's a lot of stuff. Yeah. And for many people they probably get lost, go down a rabbit hole as they start to look at this, this information. So one of the things that we, we. Have also available are material specialists. These are trained artists who are also material geeks, and they love being able to work directly with, with artists.

And, uh, it's a phone call away or an email away. Uh, they answer between 10 and 12,000 emails and phone calls a year. That they're, that it's, uh, really incredible. And when at the store level we ask if you're from a store. Tell 'em tell the receptionist, the, the, the, that you're calling from a store and you have a customer there they'll immediately get a material specialist, cuz I wanna, I want to get that, that answer right away.

And if they don't get a material special, they'll call me, Melissa will say mark, I got, I got someone from a store and they have a question about materials. So it's, you know, as close as we can get to providing. Providing, uh, direct online. I know so many people are not willing to call and especially younger generation.

We text, we look online, we're not gonna call, but for many people, it's a great, a great resource. Um, the other resources, uh, that golden artist, uh, the working program, the working artist program that started, uh, in 1988. When I, I could no longer continue to do the workshops around the country. I asked a good friend, uh, Scott Bennett and a talented artist.

I said, Scott, why don't you work for the company? And, uh, I, you know, really need some help said, well, I really don't wanna work for you. I said, well, how about, how about if we train, train you to do these lectures and, and you do, you know, maybe 20, 20 lectures, uh, a year. And so that started the working artist program, hiring artists that, that, uh, this was a separate gig for them that they could continue to paint.

And, uh, and, but also be able to earn a, earn a. Uh, living from the, the program, we now have over 30 artists that are doing this program, and it was through the work of who Patty Brady, who, who really grew the program. Patty retired several years ago and miss her horribly, but she developed such a wonderful team of people, of these artists and, uh, mostly north America and a few in, in, uh, uh, Asian Europe.

Trained for close to a year to be able to deliver a presentation on kind of the diversity of materials that we offer. And it was about 10 years ago that we started a new program, uh, called a golden artist educators. There's so many artists that teach workshops and would like to have a little bit greater depth of knowledge of material.

So we provide a training course for them. So that's over 200 artists around the. That are part of this program that provide the training, uh, do their own workshops, but are just more insightful about materials and using materials in a, in a appropriate way. But all in all it's, it's reaching probably close to 50, 60,000.

Artists and recognizing that that's a powerful way to, to share, just share information. Um, and we think that's gonna be the most successful thing we can do is provide education because the products they're, you're looking at all these white jars of mediums and such on a shelf and wondering what the hell difference are these things?

How do I decide what I want to use? And so without that kind of, of knowledge, that kind of. It becomes, uh, you know, just sell me one. I, you know, if you had just one, but I, I know I have the same problem when I go down the cereal aisle. Mm-hmm um, you know, how do you decide which things you want? Yes. And as an artist, that's spending a lot of money on materials.

How do I decide what, you know, what's gonna be the most appropriate thing? Um, you know, it was. Uh, 10 years ago, we started the artist residency. Uh, the found, uh, when my, my dad passed away in 97, we started a foundation. We gave a grant to artists and, and to art organizations every year and 2012, we, we converted an old barn into an artist residency.

Three artists at a time, come up and get to use whatever materials they'd like for a month. And during that time they're also provided, uh, insights, uh, technicals on the various materials. So this is, uh, mid-career and late career artists, and it is thrilling to see the excitement, um, An artist described it and it was the most exciting thing for me was she said I'm in the biggest art store in the world.

And. It's five o'clock and they lock the doors and I'm inside and, um, it is just a joy to see they will be working in their studios till three, four o'clock in the morning. Um, and the amount of experimentation, I mean, that's what this, this residency about. It's really experimentation. When does an artist, even the most professional artist with all the money in the world have the time to be able to try that's right.

Different materials that they become too precious. And in this. The materials are not precious. You have access to everything and you get to really pick those things that are important to you.

Jeff24:42

Well, I can tell Dave and Dave and I have known for years that. One of the big difference with golden is the people , um, you know, we've been fortunate enough here on the west coast to know Patty and even our good friend, Nina Deckard, uh, go way, way, way back mm-hmm and all, both of those incredible ladies made a, a lasting impact on almost everybody.

They touched mm-hmm . It was you, you put together great people, mark. Congratulations. I mean, you really do a

Mark25:15

great job with your people. That's, um, been the most exciting part of this company is creating a place where people might want to join and participate and more so than that, make it their own, uh, make it their own in, in so many ways.

When, when we announced to the whole staff, uh, that we were doing an ESOP in. 2002, uh, there was a longtime employee came up and said, uh, I've always felt like an owner. And that really felt great, cuz that was what we believed in ownership, culture, where people take responsibility for what, what they do and come with skills that wanna make the place a better place.

But yeah, Nina, Nina and Patty definitely made this place a better, a better place. Thankfully. As we grow older, more young people have joined the organization and that feels really wonderful. And it, it felt good that, uh, this last year we, we made, uh, the, the leap to a hundred percent employee ownership.

Wow. Cause the reality is that everything we've ever achieved, oh, Sam was incredible. Tinker. My mom was great in keeping us our books balanced, uh, and keeping us survive the first, very lean years of the company. She was good at. Borrowing from visa to pay MasterCard, pay American express. I won't get arrested for that.

I don't think right now, probably late, but, um, Although they gave us a great foundation. It really has been the people that have joined us that took it on. That's take that have taken golden artist colors on as their own that have really inspired me and make it it's Monday. I love coming into work on Monday.

It's a, a great day. And, uh, I get to work with really talented people that constantly challenge me and wanting to make this place a. A better place and that's, that is pretty exciting. Um, and to know that we. Uh, you know, every, I collect the thank you notes from artists and, uh, uh, this last year I realized that they didn't belong to me.

They belonged to everyone else. So I've been sorting through 'em all. But I have about, uh, 80 pounds of thank you notes from, from folks and what a great expression that is to the folks, to the, to the talent and the commitment that they have and the dedication to make sure that people get, uh, what. What they need.

I imagine, you know, you're working alone in your studio as an artist and feel very isolated and feeling like any mistake I make is because it's your fault. And in many cases, it's, it's not the materials weren't designed to do what you want to do. Give us a call, help, let us help you. That's great.

Jeff28:06

So as we wind down here, what, what are the products you're most excited?

Mark28:11

um, you know, it's it's every day, uh, we, we have a lab that really is committed to new developments, new products, and that's a thrill. So there's a lot of stuff in often, but when we purchase Williamsburg oil paint, you know, you think 600 years of art history, everything that's known about oils are already known.

And as, as a person who loves the sciences, The exciting part is that we continue to make incredible discoveries around these materials and find new ways to working with them, new things that, that have been overlooked by the conservation community for hundreds of years, that we've been able to unpack and then share.

So a lot of that work continues. We have consortiums all around the world, working with material scientists, uh, from the Getty to the Tate to, um, uh, you name it we've, we've had a chance to. Uh, on these things, sharing our results and a lot of the work we also share on our just paint, uh, newsletter to, to, because it is exciting, those things, those kinds of discoveries, um, you know, to develop the core watercolor, which is based on a whole new kind of resin.

Uh, that was used in conservation and again, inventing and not just an oil paint, that's 600 years old, but watercolor that's, I dunno, tens of thousands of years old. Yeah. And reinventing that for the modern age. So, uh, those things are incredibly, incredibly exciting, um, that we continue to find new ways.

And I'd love to say that all of the great ideas come from inside golden artist colors, but it's really from the artists that are calling us up and saying, Hey mark, why don't you do this? You know, mark it, you know, I really want a. you know, color that will stay wet for a long time, an acrylic thing. Oh, you can't do that.

It's like, oh, okay. Let's figure out a way to make that happen. And, uh, so, so many of the great ideas have come from just simply listening. And, uh, I think that's been the history of the company simply by listening to what artists are doing. And as they change as new ideas come. Um, trying to make sure we stay on top of those of those issues.

Well, we're,

Jeff30:27

we're glad you're listening. Um, we're glad you put the people out there that you put out there. And I know that in this industry, uh, when people think of golden artist colors, they think of, uh, an incredibly first class company, uh, represented by first class people. Mark. Thank you so very much for taking time outta your incredibly busy day to spend some time with our audience.

Mark30:52

A delight, Jeff, thank you very much.

Jeff30:54

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