ASI 40 "Taking the mystery out of using Logan Mat Cutters" interview with Brian Buell, Director of Sales at Logan Graphic Products, Inc.

Jeff00:04

Welcome back to art supply insiders. My name is Jeff Morrow, and today we're talking with Brian Buel, who is the director of sales at Logan. So did I butcher your name too badly? No, you did

Brian00:17

a good job, but, but yeah, a lot of people butcher it, but you did a good job.

Jeff00:21

I did a good job job butchering it. Huh?

no, you did. You did well. All right. Well, thank you. So tell me a little bit about Logan. How long have they been around and what is it that Logan

Brian00:32

does? Well, Logan officially came into itself about 1974 and it was a, a guy named Malcolm, Logan. Who's who's still around. He's in Florida. Most of the time, these days, but he had been sort of inventor time before that Chicago

introduced somebody who worked Crescent, cardboard. And, and yeah, and the guy at Crescent said, well, ma you know, you, and you're always inventing these things. I see the different businesses you have. Why don't you come up with a device for, for framers to use, to have a little easier time cutting mats?

Because back then very often people were essentially holding an exact knife at approximate angle along a ruler. it worked, but. It wasn't very efficient. And, and I, as mal told me once long ago, he didn't even really know what met cutters were or what framing really was about. And so he got to thinking about it and, and he was one of the first people with the idea of mounting a razor blade.

Onto a fixture that would cut it at an angle. That's kind of where it started. The original Logan system was sort of a cutting edge that ran on piece of aluminum rail as a straight edge, ran along the side of it didn't hook on or anything at that time. Awfully crude at that time, but, but it was pretty, pretty big advancement.

And from there it went on and mal eventually started to Mount mat cutting equipment onto a baseboard, which made things a whole lot easier. He started to come up with things like squaring arms. And mat guides, which will determine the width of the border. Mal was one of the first people to come up with a device that did a surface V group that we've had on and off over the years, a device that does surface vs.

And originally I think the line was the things he was making really were aimed at professional framers, more than anyone else, but, you know, reality, that's a pretty small market. It was probably really small back then. It's in comparison to. Artists today, which is an infinite number of, of people and, and there's crafters that do mats.

And then digital photography is a huge business for us. Cause anyone can get into digital photography with not a tremendous amount of money. Well, as far as we're concerned, they need a mat cutter because they're producing things that should be properly presented in the wall. So the line kind of. Shifted the direction shifted at some point into more of the at home sort of artist than it did professional framing.

We've always made some products for professional framing, but it's not really our market so much that we put a lot of focus into it's it's at home people who are doing what we call garage framers or basement framers. A lot of times it's somebody who puts together some sort of a shop and they do it on the side to make some money, you know, they'll do some framing and things for their artists that they know.

But a lot of people are just artists that want to not pay a frame shop to do it and want to do it on their own. And that's, that's the people that we love and that's who we, we put our efforts towards.

Jeff03:40

Well, I, I gotta tell you that I've seen Logan, mat cutters over the years while I've been in the art industry.

And it's really intimidated me. I look at that and I look at the finished product and it is so clean and it's so beautiful. It, how easy is it to do it yourself at home? And do you really save money in the long run going there? Or do you, does your better off just going to a custom frame?

Brian04:08

That's a, an excellent question.

And that's kind of one of the questions that we get almost every day, people call us and they're, and they're starting to seriously consider getting into their own equipment. And there's a little bit of an intimidation factor sometimes because some people are shy of the potential amount of math that they may have to do.

Oh yeah. That's me. Yeah. And, and, and they, and then when they learn that there's, it's really not that difficult or there's even kinda cheats, like. Order calculators. We have one online right now for our website. You can just put your numbers in. You don't have to know anything about math. I don't like to tell people about that until I've already taught 'em the traditional way to do it.

Cause I wanted to learn them, you know, the original way, but no, it's not really not difficult. Another sort of hang up, sometimes people have is, well, I would never know what colors to pick, you know? Well, you know, whatever color you think looks. That's what you should, you should use. I mean, there are some general sort of suggestions that framers follow when it comes to say doing double mats, they typically do the lighter color over the inside color.

And they have reasons for that. But, you know, you're just trying to find something that's neutral that pulls some of the color out in the artwork and it shouldn't be overpowering if people notice the mat first. And not the artwork weld, then maybe you overdid it. But I can tell you that we have a line of precut mats we've had for decades and decades, and about 40% of our sales are black and white, and it wouldn't mater if we had 20 other or 200 other colors, it would still be black and white.

And the next colors after that are typically neutral tones, like cream colors, tan, tan colors, earth colors. So if you just look around, go to a gallery and look and see how people have framed some other things, you can start to get a pretty good idea. And it's not that intimidating to decide what kind of colors to do most of the time when I frame things, I usually use white or white over black as a double.

That's just my direction. I like a real clean. Uncomplicated look. So it's really up to you, whatever you think is it looks good is what looks good when

Jeff06:05

you pull it out of the box. It, it, it just looks so complicated. Is it, is it relatively plug and play and you just put a couple things together and boom, you can

Brian06:16

start.

Yeah, most certainly most of our lower end equipment. There's. Almost no virtually no assembly required whatsoever. We have videos that are real good. We, a lot of time in over videos, they're on our website. We have a YouTube channel with right now of things and, and a lot of the videos are direct instructional pieces to the.

Unit that you possibly bought. And then there's a lot of other videos which are tips and hints and how to do a double and how to things like that. So, no, I mean, it's just basically a, basically a process of, of figuring out what the size of your artwork is and what size frame you're gonna put it in. And the math in between is how big of a map.

And typically maths are anywhere from an inch and a half. To maybe two and a half, three inches wide is probably pretty general. So you can sort of just run those numbers out and you get an idea of what your frame size can be. And the instructions tell you how to do it. It's you just need a ruler and a calculator.

When I teach workshops, what I do is I show people how to take fractions and convert them temporarily into decimals. I have a decimal cheat sheet that I give them, and then your decimals can be very easily calculated with the calculator. And then you turn them back into fraction by looking at your cheat sheet, and then you know exactly where to set your Mac guide.

When I show that to people, so many people are like, wow, you don't even have to know mat. You can work a calculator, then you can, you can do this. And then I tell 'em, well, on top of that, we have a free border calculator on our website. If you wanna just forget all of that, just type your numbers in and it'll spit it out for you.

So no, it it's not, I don't think I've ever been teaching a workshop in all the years. I've done. Somebody just said, I just can't do this. I've never, ever heard

Jeff07:53

that. Well, thank goodness for cheat sheets. Cause I clearly have one here and I, I need it every time I do something. So you said they can go to your website, give our audience like your website

Brian08:04

address.

It's Logangraphic.com. No S on the end, just Logan graphic.com and you'll find everything we. In that website. And I think it's on the front page, or there's a link at the top, that'll say, free border calculator. And it's a, it's embedded into our website. You simply put in the size of your art and the frame you indicate if it's a single or a double and it will kick out numbers for you, you can print 'em out and then everything's done for you.

You have to just follow that by setting your mad guide to what it tells you to do. And the mat's gonna come. I

Jeff08:34

know there are a lot of different mate cutters that that Logan has. And how, how do you know which one to start with or which one you should

Brian08:43

buy? That's probably the most common question. That we get, we get a call pretty much every day, at least one, somebody who says, I I'm, I'm really ready to buy a mat cutter.

I'm ready to get into this, but you guys have this giant line and I don't know which one to buy. And, and what happens up pretty often is people will assume, well, I better spend a lot of money and get one of the upper ones. If I want get good looking mats, or I want to be easy, or I don't wanna have any hassles or anything.

And that's, that's really. Not true. What it is is that any one of our mat cutters, you could buy a handheld push style bevel cutter. That would be about maybe 30, $40, and you push it up against your own straight edge, your own ruler. And you could compare mat from that to our top of the line platinum edge, mat cutter, which is something a frame shop would be using as well over a thousand dollars.

And comparing the two mats. They're absolutely identical. There'd be no difference. The whole, the whole thing about Logan mat cutting equipment is the more money that you spend. It speeds up the process of what you're doing. It makes it more comfortable over long periods of use and it, they become more efficient production mat cutters and production mat cutting is repeat sizes.

So I always ask people on the phone. Say. Okay. Well, gimme an idea of how many mats you think you might cut in a good month. And, and what happens a lot of times with artists is it's, it's not really, maybe a month so much. It's like, well, I'm getting ready for the season. You know, so they're cutting their mats in winter or spring, and then come summertime.

They're gonna go to these art fairs where they have a tent pop up tent, and they've got their, their pieces all in racks to look at. So they may have to. You know, dozens in couple of months or something like that, and then not touch the cutter until fall again. But I'll ask those questions to get a good idea.

And then I'll, that'll gimme a good gauge on what to suggest. And we have no problem telling people, no, don't buy that one. It's too much money for you. And it's got things you don't need. We have no problem down selling people who are prepared to buy our top of the line machine, and they're gonna cut a half a dozen month mats, a.

There's just no, no reason for it. They'll be perfectly happy and they'll get matched just as good looking out of, and we, we have people who are surprised sometimes. Like I only have to spend this much and I can still get good match. Yes, absolutely. If you were doing higher production, repeat cutting, then it would warrant getting a machine that is built for that.

And oftentimes framers will have a situation. Maybe an artist brings to them a hundred limited reproduction prints. And can you frame these for me? Okay. Well now you have a hundred mats to do well. That's production, mat cutting. And if that's the kind of work you think you're gonna be doing, then we have cutters for that at different levels.

We have ones but you don't necessarily have to buy the top of the line unless you really think you're gonna be doing serious production where you have. Framers all day long, every day using it in a frame shop environment. We have equipment for that, but if you're an at home person, we've got a lot of really good choices.

So go to our website, you got comparison charts. You can look at, you can look at our videos. You can call us. Cause everybody who answers the phone here cuts mat. You're not gonna get passed around to different tech people or sales people. A lot of times you talk to me, I answer the phone here all the time and do tech.

Every single day and we're happy to answer those questions.

Jeff11:51

Wow. That's great. So again, that's Logangraphic.com, right? That's correct. Well, what a, what a refreshing way to sell. You're not gonna try to upsell me. You're just gonna try to sell me what I need to use, how novel

Brian12:05

that's that's right. We try to, we have actually had people sometimes who will go out and buy their very first map cutter and buy the most expensive.

And have really no idea what they've bought and then they kind of regret it. They'll call us up. And then it's like, well, you know, just because you bought our most expensive one doesn't mean that you're never gonna get an over hook in your very. You know, sometimes the higher end equipment have a lot of adjustments that framers know about and look for that are not necessarily there on the lower end equipment they're made in a way to be more simplistic.

And that would've been much better suited to these people. And that's that occasionally happens. So we try to stop that before they get to that point and, you know, get a good idea of what they're doing before we start making recommendations. I've heard this

Jeff12:49

term called a production stop on a mate cutter.

Is, is that what you need not to get an overcut? Is that the way

Brian12:57

it works? Absolutely. No, that is completely wrong. And that, unfortunately, a lot of times people will they'll hear that. They'll be, well, I need to have a stop, so I don't get an overcut. It'll stop my cutting. And that's not really what it's for.

Cause if your blade depth is not set properly, you'll still get an overcut. Even if you're. Production stops. Production stops are there to speed up, repeat cuts. If you know, you're gonna be doing some run of mats in a row, which sometimes framers or maybe a photographer does, if they've got a, you know, like, like I said, like a limited edition run or something, that's when production stops come in really handy, you still need to have your blade depth set properly, which is very simple to do.

It's explaining the instructions. There's videos. You just want your blade to barely pass through the mat board and just score into your slip sheet material. Underneath just a little bit. We, we very often have people call up and say, I think I wanna buy a new cutter. Cause I'm getting overs ORs. And it never, they had never really learned about how to adjust the blade if it's screwdriver this little adjustment.

And you're a, if we do, and I never needed to buy anything new, they just needed to keep an eye on the, on the blade depth. But no so the question production stops are most valuable when you're. Production mat gun. If I had to do 10, 15 mats in a row that were random sizes, I'm not gonna use the stops.

It's faster to mark your lines out and cut from line to line.

Jeff14:19

You just used the term a second ago, a slip sheet, what's a slip sheet. What is that? Slip

Brian14:25

sheet is, is actually a piece of scrap mat board. And whenever you're doing a bevel cut on a mat cutter and the bevel cut is the angled cut that creates the actual opening because the blade is starting inside the field of the mat itself, and then coming out.

Well, you need to support the face paper of the mat. And so for that reason, we designed pretty much all of our equipment to cut from the back of the mat to blade passes through the back and comes out the front. And when you have slip sheet, which is scrap mat board, it supports the face paper. When you're bubble cutting.

So it's very, very important that you always have that and know you don't want to use any self-healing vinyl cutting mats. Some people would assume that, oh, well, that's the never ending slip sheet. Well, no, it's a really dense rubber, and it's gonna destroy your blade very quickly. The best to use is a scrap piece of mat board.

And you get a slip sheet when you first buy the machine, but you're gonna eventually have to change it because you're gonna get it all chewed up. You move it around, you flip it over when it's all chewed up, you replace it. So I tell people. The slip sheet just has to be as big as the area that you're pushing down where you're cutting the opening.

So save your dropout windows from larger mats. If nothing else you could, you could turn that into a slip sheet, or sometimes you go to a local frame shop and they may have a box on the floor with cutoffs they're selling for cheap. If you see those buy em, because you can use those as slip sheet material, but when you're straight cutting, Which it means the blade is going from outside edge clear across the mat and coming out the bottom, you don't need a slip sheet because you're not having to support the face paper in that, in that case.

So in that case, there is no slip sheet needed, but when you're bubble cutting, you should always, always. Use a slip sheet, change your blade. We often get people saying how long does a blade last? That's a very common question. Tough to really answer that, cuz I would say, well, how big of a mater are you cutting?

Because if it's a five by seven versus a 32 by 40, well, the blades are gonna have different life. What kind of mat board are you cutting? If it's a standard for play buffered acid free, the blade tends to last a lot longer than it does through rag mat, which is cotton. Or black core board, which is, which just is much tougher on the blade.

But when you start mad cutting on a little bit of a regular basis, you won't even really need to be asking yourself that question. Cause you're gonna just, you're gonna know by feel. You're just gonna be like, okay, it's time to, to change this blade. And most of our blades are reversible. So when you buy 10 pack blades, you really have.

20 ends to you. So I always tell people when I do my workshops, when you have a Mac cutter and you haven't used it in a while, and you're ready to pull it out, start cutting mats. The first thing you should do, just put a new blade in it. Cause you may not remember how good the blade was when you finished your last project.

The blades don't cost much compared to a full sheet of Mac. Don't don't wreck a full sheet of Mac board because you didn't change a blade that was 25 cents or something like that. So it's just that. And you'll learn that very quickly if you don't. So

Jeff17:22

that's a great tip. Now, what about the other things that Logan makes like the picture framing equipment is?

What is it that you make and is it hard

Brian17:30

use? No, I mean, Mac equipment is really our core. Line of product that we've had since the really the seventies picture framing equipment. We got much heavier into in the early two thousands. And it's, it's like a lot of our other equipment it's aimed at, at home users.

For the most part, we're not making pneumatic equipment. That picture frame shops would be using we're. We're trying to accommodate the people who are at home. So we do have a line of tools including a soft fence kit that you can add to your own power, saw that you bought at a home improvement store.

That will turn your, your power saw into an accurate molding cutoff saw, because it has a scale on, it made specifically for you to look to where you make your, your cutoffs on the rabbits, which called the rabbit, which is the inside of the frame. After you cut your rabbits, we have a sanding wheel, which is a Sandra manual sander.

They're never power. You use those to correct. The incorrectness of your saw the saws are just never perfectly 45 vertically and horizontally. You just never are. The only time you wouldn't need a saw, really, in my opinion is if you had some frame shots would be using, what's referred to as a guillotine chopper, which is a pedal driven.

Sometimes you're pneumatic and they drive, use a blade to chop. Those are very accurate. You should not need to sand, but if you're using any kinda a power saw, it's a good idea to have a sander. You do a few spins on each of the Mir cuts and it sees that they're 45 degrees. Vertically and horizontally.

That's what makes sure that you get good joints then past that we've got a series of joiners or V nailers. Sometimes people refer ERs. So you bring your frame pieces together in a clamp, one corner at a time yous. You could drive your emails in, we have hardwood, nails and software nails, and that completes your frame.

And then you're going to load your frame with the glass or the glazing, whatever it's that you can see through your mounted artwork. Typically a backing board piece. And then we have a tool it's a couple of different tools that drive points into the back of the frame to secure everything. And they're called point drivers.

And we have a very basic one that drives one at a time. We've got a real popular one that works like a staple gun called dual drive. And we have a pneumatic one, which you run to an air hose and you can very like a frame shop. It's very, very quick. Then from there you put your dust cover paper on and your hardware.

We've got instructions and videos to take you through that whole step from cutting and joining a frame to putting on the rubber bumpers and hanging it on the wall. So it, it's not really a difficult process at all. And it can absolutely save you a lot of money versus paying someone else to do it.

Boy, I'll

Jeff19:58

say so what else does Logan make besides mat cutters?

Brian20:03

Well, the Mac cutters we do along with the picture framing tools, we back in about 2008, we launched a, a line of tools. The first they were specific for phone works and those like architect architectural projects. People doing 3d modeling.

We found that we have a market of these tabletop gamers and these three dimensional shapes that use like lead figurines and tabletop games and crafters of

project. So it's a great line for us. And it goes into a lot of markets that at first we didn't know were really even gonna, gonna pop up. And then a few years ago, we came out with another line of tools that sort of came from foam works. And they're called co tools, cos dash tools. And that is marketed at cosplay.

And cosplay is like, ComicCon, you've seen ComicCon. These people will take, they use, typically use this type of, of foam. It's kind of a squishy foam and comes in different thicknesses and they cut it, craft it, shape it, sculpt it, and they. Battle armor and swords, and they look like robots and superheroes.

It's amazing it's, it's brand new to us. It's an enormous, enormous thing. So we've taken some of our phone works. What happened to work very well, and we've rebranded some of them as co tools and we've come out with additional tools for the co to, I just did a com show here in Chicago suburbs over 4th of July weekend.

And it was crowd. Very crowded as usual. Well, I, you

Jeff21:34

know, I think that's gonna make a, a really cool follow up interview. We can talk more about the foam works and the, and especially all of the cause tools that, that I know that's real popular now. Isn't it. Mm-hmm . So does Logan have videos and guides on how to make picture frames?

And if you do, where do we go to find them?

Brian21:54

mean, you can go on our website and if you're looking for specific information on a product, each item is gonna have its own page and each page will have gallery of pictures. It will have a place where you can download the parts schematics. You can look at the manuals, you can download and print those online, and there'll be a video.

You go to our YouTube channel. And you're also gonna find a lot more videos of how to tips and hints on picture framing. Like I was just talking about ways to clean glass ways to apply your dust cover the way there's there's video showing how one way to loop the, the picture framing wire that, that.

Picture framers typically do. I mean, you can do it just by way, any way you want, but if you'd like to see a little bit of information on how the pros do it, you can go there and see if there's tips on, on doing how to do a double or an offset corner, which is sort of stepped in the corner. So, yeah, there's a lot, lot of content on our website and on our YouTube.

Channel without a doubt.

Jeff22:50

It's all there. Wow. And you guys are on social media also like the Facebook, Instagram, all those kinds of things.

Brian22:57

Yes. And we found that that ramping putting up more efforts into that is definitely attracting a lot more. Yeah. Followers. It's, it's a, you know, it's, it's a whole different thing, but yes, we have Instagram accounts for our Mac cutters.

We have one for our phone works. We have one for our tools right now, the cost tools, the biggest. Biggest draw right now because it's a very sort of social media driven market of, of cosplay. And we have Facebook page for, for a couple of different lines as well too. And I try to hit, I'm trying to hit them more like weekly.

Now, if I can, but it's, it's, it's tough, but I'm trying to hit things at least on all these and drop little projects. Sometimes I can edit up older videos to make new. Pieces, but we're trying to come up with rich content that's available for people to quickly and easily see. So yes, social media is something we have fully embraced.

Jeff23:47

Kind of an odd question here. Do you guys offer classes on picture framing? Is, is that possible?

Brian23:53

Well, we've never done official classes here in our building because we are factory. We're in a small town north of Chicago called Wakanda is where we've been since about 78 or 79. I think we've been here.

I do personally, I have done lots of mad cutting workshops that typically last, maybe two or three hours at a time they're typically done in art supply stores. I've done mad cutting presentations at digital photography places. There's a big one in New York I've gone to, but I've gone to big art stores that are up in Buffalo and in Vancouver and in Los Angeles and Texas everywhere.

And because of what's been going on the last couple years, of course, there hasn't been a whole lot of that. I've done very little travel over the last few years, but I, at the NATA show earlier this year, I saw a lot of my customers and I had several people say, Hey, are you interested? And we're starting to have instructors come back in because a lot of the yard stores are very smart where they bring these instructors in on some sort of a regular rotation of, of different things you can sign up for.

That'll be a watercolor person, it'll be pastel or there'll be. And so mat cutting workshops is a, is a great thing. So. You may find me out there as time goes on, coming out more and more check your local art stores. But I know also know that artists, you know, you can go to your local art store and a lot of time art stores will have friend counters in them.

So you've got a professional framer. The Frank counter people, they can put on some kind of a workshop. And if we're told Logan will

otherwise website there. And as they come up, you'll see the dates. If there's any costs, you know, the hours what, what it's expected, what you'll learn out of it, things like that. So we try to do our best to, you know, educate in person anytime we can.

Jeff25:39

That's an incredible program. So. Speaking of art stores, where's the best place for people to, to buy Logan stuff.

And, and I'm talking domestically and even internationally, how, where, how do they go about getting this? Well, I

Brian25:53

still love going retail stores. So the first people very often will say, well, where do this? And we don't sell, never sells to end users at all. We. We are supported through our retailers or our distributors who then sell to retailers.

That's how we always sell we're.

I always tell people, check your local,

encourage, encourage people to check your local store first. But there are certainly a lot of catalog people that are still running catalogs that are out there. And of course just searching online. You're gonna find endless amounts of people that will sell it to you. Some people have preferred chains that they buy through and really all of them are gonna be selling some.

Level of Logan or they'll special order it for you. If it's an odd item that they don't carry. So that's where I tell people to start. And it's really no different. In other parts of the world, we do a lot of business in Europe and it's very similar. There's chains over there. A lot of independent stores, a lot of them have websites.

We tell people who write us in say here, you know, you're in this country. Okay, well, we've got this guy, this guy, this guy. And, and really the thing is sometimes people will say, well, where do you get the best price? We don't know. Because, unless I go out like they do and start checking prices, which change dealers can become very competitive.

Sometimes I don't know what our best price either is gonna be until I go out and look around. So that's what I tell people is start poking around, call your local arts by dealers. See what they can do for you on this. That's always my first

Jeff27:26

suggestion. Well, Ryan, this has been an education for me, cuz I, I would look at a mate cutter and I would walk the other way just because it scared the hell outta me.

It sounds like you make it easy for anybody that wants to do this at home.

Brian27:41

Yeah, there is. There's a large segment of people who want to do things at home. We do occasionally have artists who feel that for whatever reason, they don't, they're, they're an artist and they should only be touching brushes or whatever.

Hey, that's fine. Okay. If you've got a channel to get your framing done by all means whatever works best for you, but there are a lot of people. Who, you know, the whole starving artist thing is, is still very real, you know, and anytime that they can save money and, and do these things themselves, I mean, for instance, if you buy a full sheet of, well, if you go to a, have a mat cut for yourself, say a 16 by 20 single mat, you probably could easily pay $20 for that.

I would say conservatively, if you bought a full sheet of map board, which these days are probably gonna run you 12 to $15, you can get four 16 by twenties. Of that, if you do it yourself, so you can very quickly. Pay for your equipment, especially some of the lower end introductory cutters, like our compact series.

I think if you cut six or 10 mats on those, you've probably already paid for it. Even if you never use it again, you've probably paid for it. If you cut just about a half, a dozen mats or so. So there's a lot of people out there that are looking for ways to save money. And I always tell artists, cause a lot of people who take my course, my, my workshops will be professional artists and they're selling their pieces sometimes in these summer craft fairs and art fairs.

The the best way. If you can, to present it to the public who comes up to your tent is ready to go on the wall. That is the absolute best way. Cause then they, the people can buy it. They go home, they hang it right over the fireplace and, and it's done if they wanna reframe it because the color's not right.

Well, they can worry about that later on. But if you sell, 'em only the print. That's fine, but likely it's going to sit in their closet for a year or two before they, you know, finally get it to a framer to get it done. So if you can at least get it in a mat, if not a mat in a frame and it doesn't have to be really expensive, just presentable, ready to go on the wall.

It is so much more likely. That you're going to sell it. And there's more money in it for you. If you've done it for your done it yourself, as opposed to paying someone else. So that's what we just offer. Just an alternative, you know, there's there's room for all those markets, but this is what we do is we offer a channel for people to do these things on

Jeff29:48

their own great information.

Love to have you back to talk about foam works and cause tools more, more in depth. Does that sound okay? Yeah, I'd love

Brian29:57

to do that. We'd

Jeff29:58

love it. Ah, thank you. Well, Brian, thank you again for being on the.

Brian30:03

. I appreciate it. Thank you very

Jeff30:04

much. You've been listening to art supply insiders, check back with us often as we talk about the world of art and craft supplies.

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