ASI 76 Unraveling the Intricate World of Natural Pigments: The Journey, The Process, The Revolution

Jeff: 0:07

Welcome back to Art Supply Insiders. My name is Jeff Morrow and today we're talking with George and Tatiana. George and Tatiana have a company called Natural Pigments. Did I say all that correctly?

George: 0:23

That's correct, absolutely.

Jeff: 0:26

Well, thank you so much for being with us today. Can you give us a little bit of history on who you are and what it is that you bring to our audience?

George: 0:38

So Natural Pigments is somewhat an unusual company in that Art Supply Company in that we manufacture products that are, I would say, closer to historical reproductions as possible. Now, there has to be shortcuts in that. Obviously, if we wanted to make let's say we make oil paint and watercolors, and if we wanted to make oil paint as historically accurate, then we would have to actually grow wild flax seeds and brush them, and we'd have to, you know, we'd have to really go down that path. But what we do is we don't include modern additives in the oil paints and watercolors, so their behavior tends to be more like historical reproductions of oil paint or watercolors, but watercolors especially at the end of the 18th or beginning of the 19th century. And so that was a difference that was kind of discovered along the way we thought about making. We actually started making or offering pigments. That's how it all started.

Tatiana: 1:54

We should start even a little bit before, because George was an artist a long time ago.

Jeff: 2:01

Long time.

Tatiana: 2:02

Yes, long time ago. And so he, somehow life brought him to iconography. And if your audience doesn't know what is iconography, it's a religious art and that's what icons are done for the churches. And George, just like nothing my husband does anything easy or simple. So he went to Russia to learn that, because he understood then one thing, to learn that just technical aspect of the icons. But it must be much more to that. And so then, when he returned back from Russia, that's how we started first non-profit organization and it called iconophile what we were teaching Americans iconography. And that's he. We brought first our 13 pigments from Russia and then that's how it started. It's basically was in garage. He was playing with this pigments, with understanding that they somehow behave different than synthetic modern pigments, and that's how it started.

Jeff: 3:21

Wow, and this started back when. What year did you start this?

George: 3:25

So this would actually well. I actually, after a kind of a long career in marketing advertising, I started off as an artist but like many artists of my generation who wanted to paint realistically, not abstract art.

George: 3:43

Abstract art, of course, was still in the 70s, was still very and still, of course, is very, very popular item for collectors. But what I didn't want to paint abstract, I wanted figurative work, and the only jobs that there was and you couldn't sell the art or was very difficult would be an illustrator, and that's where, that's where that path, and, of course, eventually it was an advertising things, this nature, but but in Silicon Valley, and of course at that at the end of the 1990s. I wanted to get out of all that and I decided to go back into art. Interesting enough, I took up studying, as Tony mentioned, religious art and but from a more of a technical side of it, and I was interested in the technical aspect of mostly temporal work.

George: 4:36

And that's where I went to Russia, and because I the paper that I read originally was written by a Russian professor on the topic and I had to go and see it for myself. So so we met there and and so she came back with me and and we, the, the company, started as natural pigments, because what, what Tatiana mentioned, is that the pigments that were trained or I was being trained with in Russia are actually natural minerals, and that was, of course, what they used to use and so, as pigments, the majority were inorganic or natural minerals, and so when I started working with this, I understood that there was a property to them, was very different from other pigments modern synthetic pigments and so the paint turned out differently and this was a kind of a aha moment, and this was in about 2003. And that's when we founded Natural Pigments.

Tatiana: 5:50

And if you notice, on Natural Pigments, when we first originally we started the company we wanted to give artists something completely different, what they are custom already in 20th century. But the moment we put Natural Pigments of course, we started have phone calls like, can I use for my makeup? And so we probably made mistakes. So under Natural Pigments you can see historical, because a lot of the pigments actually are not natural. And then in history for thousands of years, it was done manmade.

George: 6:30

Yeah, they were manmade or synthetic, so lead white is a good example of that.

Jeff: 6:35

Yes, Well, you know, I'm looking at your, your website right now and can you give our audience the web?

George: 6:43

address Sure, it's naturalpigmentscom.

Jeff: 6:49

So that's natural N-A-T-U-R-A-L-P-I-G-M-A-N-T-S dot com. Right, correct.

Tatiana: 6:57

And if you're in Canada it's C-A and if it's in Europe it'seu.

Jeff: 7:03

I understand completely. So, as I'm looking at this, this is a phenomenal website. You guys are I've not seen anything quite like it out there with the range of products that you, that you offer. Tell us a little bit just about all the different product categories that you offer. First, Sure.

George: 7:31

So the we have a broad selection of dry powder pigments as well as pigments that are predis dispersed in water, making it easy for water, water-based media, artists that want to explore that, and so that's one huge category. There's hundreds of different pigments. The bulk of them are natural, minerals or earth pigments that come from all different parts of the world. We source all that, too, and we we go to the sources. We look at what's being produced there. The second area, of course, is our paint. So we have oil paints, water color, and we have actually a brand new medium that has never been done before, which is a water-based wax paint.

Tatiana: 8:20

We are only comparing the world. To make this yeah, and it's color.

George: 8:25

It kind of looks like acrylic maybe, or gouache, but it's actually wax and when it dries it's wax and continue sculpting it, melting it, working with like you would in caustic. We don't call it in caustic because it doesn't. It can be worked like in caustic, but it doesn't need to be. It can be worked simply as a water-based medium.

Tatiana: 8:48

It's probably one of the safest mediums because even when we talk about acrylics, it still has all kind of chemicals where with, with color.

George: 9:00

Yeah acrylic paints, although being relatively safe, still contain things like tertiary ammonia and products like that. The color doesn't have anything like that and, in fact, all what few ingredients, because most of the ingredients is beeswax that's the major part of it or the pigment, but the other ingredients can be found in things like cosmetics.

Tatiana: 9:23

It's easy to paint. It's literally acts as a gouache, but once water evaporates, it's a belief or not, it's waterproof, so imagine it's wax and very unusual.

George: 9:38

So that's a new medium we developed. And then, of course, we have other materials paint making kits. We encourage artists to make paint. We understand a lot of them won't, and that's fine, but some want to explore that and that's what we're all about. We're all about artists exploring their materials in a way that they're typically don't know, frankly, don't know much about. Artists aren't taught. You go to school, you go to university, you go to even even the most prestigious art colleges in the world and they really don't teach about materials. It's not really part of the curriculum and what we're trying to do is teach artists about materials because we believe it's a major handicap not knowing how the materials behave, what they do, and we get some of the most interesting questions from artists who actually the questions are so basic we naturally assume well, why isn't this being taught as painting 101?

Tatiana: 10:48

By the way, the company same like Iconofile. It started educational program. If you will read on our blog and on our website, george wrote hundreds of articles about not only art history but more about the materials and, by the way, like 2006, national Gallery first time ordered first lecture from George where it was about pigments and we didn't realize how much interest it was because we thought it will be the restores. I mean, who else will?

George: 11:31

come Right, what the group yeah, just yes.

Tatiana: 11:34

It was. Hundreds of people came to that lecture, so then we understood that, well, that is missing part and it's like snowball. So many. Lecture later, and in 2013, we had our first class. It's called Painting Best Practices and where we teach artists everything about materials. It's nothing about our paint, actually, or our materials. It's about everything what artists could be used in their studios.

Jeff: 12:11

Wow. So as I look at your website, it really is. In addition to selling product, it's their educational pages, aren't they?

George: 12:25

There's thousands of pages Like, for instance if you look at any of the pigment pages, you'll see a very complete description of the history of that pigment in art, how that pigment was used in art, the source of the pigment, because we reveal where these pigments come from, technical data about the pigment, like particle size and how much oil a particular pigment will absorb by weight, and all of these technical information so that an artist can educate themselves more about what they're actually using and how to utilize these things. And there's so many different types of materials, like the section in mediums as an example. There's all these different what we call extender pigments, like shock and marble dust and silica and talc, and all of these things are used in the paint industry even today, especially today, more so than any time in history, to influence the behavior of the paint.

George: 13:34

That's a really important aspect for us.

Tatiana: 13:36

Traveling with our class when this student, an artist, probably the most ignorant group, was about the materials.

Tatiana: 13:49

And it's not their fault, because it's the fault of the companies. Through 20th century, what happened? Because every time company create new color, and as an artist, of course, they jump to the color itself without understanding what is in two or even worse, in medium. So, like in the last 70 years, just a couple or maybe just handful of mediums were using, and it doesn't matter what artists, because artists are all different, they mean different ways, they approach the painting different, but they're using same mediums without even understanding why they're using this or that mediums because they were taught by their teachers or were taught by another one, and it's kind of. That's why George decided to break that pattern and so that's why we bring so many mediums, but they every each of them for different purposes and same with colors. We make our colors different than everybody else and sometimes it's shocking because artists are accustomed to paint with like two spaced paint. Doesn't matter from what company they buy, because the colors are the same, the behavior is the same and rubles of colors are completely different.

George: 15:21

They're different because, again, we don't use a modern additive which changes the behavior of the paint instantly. So you can even have a pigment that is made like. What we do is we have pigments that we grind them to the point where they actually mimic and actually are similar to pigments made or used in past centuries and then. But if you put a modern additive in there, then the behavior of that particular color goes away, because that additive controls the flow of the paint and how it behaves under the brush or under the knife. And for us, that was actually the most, one of the most important things that I found when working with these natural pigments. They had unusual particle size and shape and, as a result, the paint started to behave very differently, and we have videos on our website showing that. We showed a comparison between a lead white that was made according to an old process and lead white that's made according to the new process, which was actually just invented in the 20th century, and the paint behaves differently. It's the same pigment in the same oil, but because the pigment was made differently, it has a different particle size and shape and that changed the behavior of the paint.

George: 16:48

And it's remarkable because a lot of artists come to us and they go. You know how did Rembrandt make that brush stroke? Was it the medium he used? And we tell him, no, it wasn't the medium, it was the way his paint was made. And it's because they more often made their own paint. So they understood that Artists today buy paint tubes and they have no idea that there could be something different than what they see come out of the tube. And it can be, and that's the distinction that we try to put in there. There's lots of great art companies making great paint, and that's we're not saying that what we do is better. What we say we do is very different.

Jeff: 17:31

Very different I'm looking at just to give our audience a little bit of a view. I just picked one pigment color here and I went up and I clicked on green pigments and, as I look at this, you'd think there'd only be two or three greens, right? My goodness, my goodness, what have you got Like 15 different green pigments.

George: 17:55

Right, yeah, and that's you know. Actually there are many more, but because we don't have a wider breadth of modern pigments, we have some modern pigments in there, pigments that we consider, you know, invented or developed after the late 19th century. But you can see, we have various, like you'll see, at least five different types of green earths there, and they come from different locations. They look differently, they behave differently and the subtlety of the color is very different.

Tatiana: 18:34

On YouTube. We started a new program it's called Color Notes, where we exactly show in artists, because it could be confusing when you come to our website and so they like from jar, it's looked like almost the same, but when you look how they behave different, how they the tints are different, yes, so the color strength is different, the opacity is different, so it's a lot of subtle differences.

George: 19:05

And if an artist is looking for bright, garish colors, well we're not the web, you know, we're not the paint company for that. But if they're looking for all of these subtle tints and colors and behavior, then it's. It's kind of like the difference between your, you know, in your grocery store, you know the generic boxed products, and then you go to the work AI where you have things that are, you know, prepared with a little bit differences and so forth, from the large processed types of foods.

Tatiana: 19:43

So we're that's how we kind of liken ourselves To not to brag but originally, jeff, when we started company, of course we understood that we are not for everybody and so we kind of targeted only professional artists. We understood the longevity of the paint for them important, but after we actually will celebrate 20 years this year on September. So yeah, 20 years later we realized that now of course we are known artists, even when they think that they are not professional. So they still come to us and they understand the importance of the longevity, even if what we are every time saying that, even if you don't sell, but if you want your children have your art, you need to think about with what you're painting, and especially if you're professional. That's why we we have very high level artists using our paint and we do understand the importance.

Tatiana: 20:48

And what's the word I'm looking so we can't screw that. That's basically it Every batch. Still we it's like wine, you know, we ageing, we grinding, we regrinding, we ageing again, and so until it's ready we will not release the paint. And that's why we are not in many stores in in the country and actually an outside we we do have stores all over the world, but still it's every store understand them to have our paint. It's very special and we definitely. If it's something doesn't doesn't work, we will not release the color.

Jeff: 21:34

So you kind of mentioned you were in some stores and not that many. So if our audience had interest in purchasing your product, can they go to your website and purchase it.

George: 21:47

Yeah, absolutely Absolutely. In fact, that was the. Again. That's a little bit different model for creating an art supply business, because most of the manufacturers have or sell through their store, so few of them sell directly online or it's there. Our major sales go through our online stores and part of that was decided early because we understood that we had to do a lot of educational work, which isn't the best business model for you know, we love it.

Tatiana: 22:23

We love it.

George: 22:24

We absolutely. You know, as you can see on the website, the blog has 200 articles. We're doing, yeah, We've got. We now have about 60 videos on YouTube.

Tatiana: 22:37

We created, finally, our painting best practicescom website where people can go, and before we would go all over the world with our three days class, we not only retired but of course Corona happened, and that's why, we finally, finally. We promised so many years to do this online, never had the time. During Corona we finally put that our painting best practices that come there and so people can have a classes and can have the same education what we were doing one on one.

Tatiana: 23:14

But we do have we still have stores, although Corona wipe up a couple of the stores, of course. We do have stores in the country and some of them very successful and we love them and we support the stores If it's, if it's, if somebody call us and then they want to know what's around. So our office always will give the information where it's easier to buy if they don't want to do online.

Jeff: 23:42

So so, speaking of contacting you, can our audience reach out and say they've got a question about a pigment or a paint? Do you encourage the audience to call and chat with you directly?

Tatiana: 23:56

Absolutely. That's what we are known for.

George: 23:59

That's. That's in fact. It's so funny because we get calls about other company's products, so because some companies will not answer, but we will but we definitely answer everybody and either they can either go through the contact on the website, where they can do it through email, or they could call the 800 number and we'd be happy we're always happy to talk to people.

Tatiana: 24:27

Or we do have program where we do an online monthly it's artist materials advisor and where people can ask any questions. Usually it's kind of like topic, but we answer any questions there.

George: 24:42

So we do a live YouTube just about every month.

Jeff: 24:48

You know we talked about the professional, but I can see that there are a lot of artists out there that aren't professional and aren't selling their art, that they just want to learn more and, as I look at your website, this is a place where they can go and kind of learn the basics about the pigment and how it turns into paint and how to use it Right.

George: 25:15

Oh yeah, yeah, there's all of these different tutorials on there, like you mentioned, how to make paint, how to varnish, how to prepare canvas or wood panels for different painting techniques. So there's a lot of basic information, there's a lot of very detailed information, historical information about colors and a lot of information about pigments, and all of that is to really help the artist better understand what they're using.

Tatiana: 25:50

We you know where it started. It started when we we went to museums and we, of course, george and I, were going on back door of museums and so and we realized that we still great see like 15, 16, 70th century art, 18th century already starting, like you know, 19th century, 20th century, some of the paint. You can't even see the paintings because they're failing apart. Nobody's asking the question why what happened? It's due to the materials. I mean techniques one thing, of course too, but materials, and that's why.

George: 26:33

Well, there's a, in fact I do a lecture called changes in binding medium and I trace the history, how, in painting, in Western painting particularly, particularly in Europe, how the, the goal of painting changed through the centuries and as a result of it on you is mentioning is that, as a result of that, paintings have more and more problems and more recent paintings, and we would think that it would be the opposite with technology, with better materials and things would be better.

George: 27:09

But what really happened is paintings don't have the same longevity as they used to do in, let's say, in the 15th century, which is amazing, but it's because because artists have become further and further removed from what the materials are. They used to make the materials, so they understood what it was.

Jeff: 27:31

Wow.

George: 27:32

As modern manufacturing took over the sale and the development and manufacturing of paint, especially since the 19th century, then artists stop making it and they, they really don't understand the materials anymore. And we liken it to you know, a chef, you go to a culinary school. They don't. You know, they don't give you pre prepared stocks and sauces that they just pulled out of the market. They, they give you the raw materials, the herbs. You know all the starches and all the different ingredients that go into it. And you're supposed to make that? Artists don't have that advantage anymore and it's it's. We think of it as a handicap.

Jeff: 28:18

You know we're coming to the end of this particular podcast and we have so much more to talk about. You have pigments, paints, mediums, ground supports, brushes, tools, drawing, gilding bundles. I mean there is just so much to talk about. But for those of you listening out there, you need to go to naturalpigmentscom and see this site for yourself. You're really not going to believe what you see when you go there. Make sure you have plenty of time, because there's a lot to look at, right?

George: 28:59

Yes, absolutely.

Jeff: 29:00

Yeah, so can I ask you guys to come back and we can get into product a little bit more specifically in the future? Would that be okay?

George: 29:11

Absolutely, absolutely.

Jeff: 29:13

Wow, this has been such an eye opening interview for me. I had no idea the depth that that that you all go into. So again, George Tantiana, golly, what a, what a wonderful interview, and thank you so very, very much for taking the time today.

George: 29:35

Well, thank you for having us.

Jeff: 29:38

Well, we're going to see you again real soon, so we love that Good. You've been listening to the Art Supply Insiders. Check back with us often as we talk about the world of art and craft supplies. If you'd like to hear more of these podcasts, please hit the subscribe button on your preferred podcast platform and we'd really appreciate it if you tell a friend. If you'd like to show your support, please consider going to our website and getting the support button at artsupplyinsiderscom. They'll go out and create something.